RE: Chinese adoption

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RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Fri 29 Jan 2010 - 15:51

Hi everyone! I've been lurking on the forum for ages, but haven't posted yet. My hubby and I have been researching international adoption for more than 3 years, so when I read this post I finally felt like I had something to offer.

Hannah's Hope wrote:Hi Kerry,

I honestly think it's going to work out way more expensive than a local private adoption. The only thing is, I think Chinese babies will be more readily available than white or Indian babies here in RSA.

On average, there are about 2 Chinese babies a year available for adoption in South Africa. So, way less than White or Indian babies.

Hannah's Hope wrote:
If you are keen on a baby girl. China is the place for you. 98 % of the children up for adoption are female. As you would expect of the People's Republic. Its a bureaucratic process: it takes roughly a year before you can fly to China and have a baby handed over to you in a hotel room. A donation of 1500 pounds to the orphanage plus government fees of 2500 pounds are required (use current exchange rate to convert). Singles and over 50s are not eligible..........

Unfortunately, most of what Hannah posted here is not accurate. All adoptions from China are handled through the China Center of Adoption Affairs (CCAA). The CCAA has formal agreements with 17 countries to allow adoption of Chinese children to those countries. South Africa is NOT one of those countries. The citizens of those 17 countries has to work through adoption agencies recognised by the CCAA to be able to adopt. Private adoptions are not allowed in any way, form or manner. The cost of working through these agencies vary, but the ball park figure is US$ 25 - 30 000, including a $3000 orphanage donation. Recently this was raised to $3500. The babies are generally handed over at the social welfare department of the particular province, not the hotels since adoptive parents travel in groups to China and generally stay all over China while visiting to bring their babies home. The wait time to be matched with a baby has steadily increased over time. When I first tried to find info in 2006, the wait was 18 months to 2 years. The people currently being matched have been waiting for 3 1/2 + years and the matching is happening at a snail's pace. Prospective adoptive parents who are applying and being logged into the healthy children's program at the CCAA right now, are facing a 6 - 8 year wait. New restrictions were introduced in the last couple of years, which have made it even harder to qualify for the adoption program. If you and your partner have more than one divorce between the two of you, you're out. If you've ever been treated for mental illness (that means depression in China terms), you're out. If you're overweight, you're out. You have to have $80 000 in assets, plus earn $10 000 per person per year, including the child you will be adopting.

All in all, China is not a program that will accept South African applicants, nor is it a viable program for general, middle glass South Africans. If anyone is interested, you can visit chinesestarfish.blogspot.com. It is the blog of a South African woman who runs a Chinese foster home for special needs orphans in Xi'an, China. Be warned though that you won't leave the site without shedding a lot of tears for not being able to offer a family to one of her babies. They crawl into your heart faster than you can blink.

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by tracyg on Fri 29 Jan 2010 - 18:24

Thanks for the information.

As much as i think chinese children are the CUTEST, i dont think i would be able to wait that long and ALL that money! sho! :Unsure
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Ilze on Fri 29 Jan 2010 - 19:58

very interesting, thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum. Tell us a bit more of yourself and also the road your'e going with the adoption.
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by michmac on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 7:40

Hi there

Welcome to the forum!
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hannah's Hope on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 10:46

Hi Anotherone and welcome to the forum!

I would just like to point out that I received my information from:

http://www.adoptree.co.za/cms/?Adoption_Around_The_World

http://china.adoption.com/

http://www.iol.co.za/general/newsview.php?click_id=661&art_id=iol1165401433952M350&set_id=16

Are babies for adoption easier to find in other countries?

Yes. Half of the 300 adopted by UK parents each year are from China, where the one-child-per-family policy has resulted in orphanages filled with abandoned children, mostly girls.

According to statistics quoted on some of the above sites, 3 909 Chinese children were adopted in 2008 alone by US citizens. It therefore boggles my mind that South Africans are excluded as there are obviously more than 2 Chinese babies available to adopt? And the amounts you mention really do seem excessive hey? Shame, to think that those poor baby girls are going to grow up as orphans because they have a screwed up system!

Personally I have no experience with international adoptions as our son was adopted locally. But I can tell you that white newborn babies are very, VERY scarce - I speak out of experience, believe me. Our social worker, who is a very busy and renowned professional, only placed 2 white babies in 2009, of which Sam is one. In 2007 she placed none.

I sincerely apologise if the incorrect information I had sourced negatively impacted on anyone, it was certainly not my intention to deceive anyone.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Anotherone, it's much appreciated.


Last edited by Nix1407 on Sat 22 May 2010 - 12:05; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo!)
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 12:42

Hannah's Hope wrote:According to statistics quoted on some of the above sites, 3 909 Chinese children were adopted in 2008 alone by US citizens. It therefore boggles my mind that South Africans are excluded as there are obviously more than 2 Chinese babies available to adopt? And the amounts you mention really do seem excessive hey?

When I said that there were only about 2 Chinese babies available per year, I meant in South Africa. Those are Chinese babies relinquished for adoption by their parents here, not adopted from China. Most Asian babies seem to be absorbed by the Asian communities instead of becoming available for adoption by any other racial group. If you want to double check the adoption fees, you can simply google Chinese adoption fees or anything along those lines. Here is only one agency's fees for the China program:

http://www.aacadoption.com/adoption/China_Adoption_Costs.aspx

Ofcourse, those fees include the costs for US immigration, which we don't have to worry about. These fees also vary from agency to agency, so while an applicant might get away with less at a different agency, there are also agencies that charge more.

The links you specified are at least 4 years old, with the exception of the adoption.com one. That one was updated in 2008 after the CCAA released new regulations in 2007 and to add the stats from 2008.

Thank you for receiving me so kindly on the forum and please, Hannah, I hope you are not offended by my first post. I have spent many, many years learning everything I can about international adoption possibilities and I really did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings or offend anyone. I am by no means an expert, but I do hope that the info I've spent so many years learning can at least keep someone else from wasting their time. I'll post a quick intro seperately.

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hannah's Hope on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 13:45

No problem, I feel exactly the same about my many years of learning all about local adoptions in South Africa!! And it's wonderful that you can enlighten us about the intricacies of international adoptions - heaven knows, it's not like information on the topic is freely available!

One thing I have learned is that fee structures literally changes from adoption to adoption. Sam's adoption was REALLY expensive, yet friends of ours adopted their white newborn for less than half of what we paid. I'm sure it's the same with international agencies.

I think your post is also a wake-up call for those of us who have always thought of international adoption as a last resort, keeping it on the 'back burner' so to speak, if things aren't working out with a local adoption or if the wait seems too long you always have international adoption to fall back on. I know that my DH and I have always thought that we may be able to have a sibling for Sam that way. Now it seems that international adoption is not an option at all and that you'll be wasting your time going down that avenue?

So sad that motherless children are being raised in orphanages when they could have grown up in a happy, loving family. Very sad indeed......
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 18:39

At the moment, international adoption is not an option for South Africans at all, except for Indian couples adopting from India. South Africa is a signatory to the Hague convention on Intercountry adoption and they're working on implementing new regulations to become Hague compliant. This is only my opinion, but in my eyes the Central Authority (Department of Social Development) is a complete mess. I contacted them more than a year ago to get their authorisation for international adoption and the one person would tell me it wouldn't be a problem, while the next person would tell me to call back in a couple of months. My original question was very simple, would we be able to adopt from a certain country without obstruction from the South African side, a straight forward yes or no question. They kept giving me the run around for 9 months, never giving me a straight answer, until they suspended all international adoptions. Now they're telling me to phone back in April/May. The Central Authority has to implement a whole new system of screening prospective adoptive parents through Child Protection Agencies, who will be appointed and supported by the Department of Social Development. NOBODY can tell me who these Child Protection Agencies are. All of the regulations are part of the new Children's Act, which was supposed to be fully implemented in November last year, but they didn't do it, hence the "call back in April/May" answer. The general attitude seems to be that the only children deserving of a family are South African children and anyone else is not worth their time or effort. So, nobody can adopt a child internationally without concent from the South African goverment and they're not willing to grant that permission. There is no shortage of people abroad willing to help South Africans because they just want the children to grow up in families instead of orphanages, but our own government is the biggest obstacle.

I enquired into the Indian adoption program recently and was told we were the first white couple to EVER make an enquiry. We had to wait for the board meeting in November to hear if they would work with us and they decided that their original agreement was made to fascilitate the adoption of Indian children by Indian couples, so they weren't willing to work with a white couple. Oh, the irony! Their biggest issue was that a child adopted from India would be taken out of the child's culture and language into a strange culture and language if we adopted that child. I wonder if they realise that South African Indian culture and language is vastly different from India's Indian culture and language. blink

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hannah's Hope on Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 19:06

That is so, SO frustrating!!! And isn't it just typical of our wonderful government to NEVER have a straight answer to ANYTHING!!!!

Don't get me started on the Children's Act. SO many promises had been made about this Act and it seems that none of them are going to materialize. Even social workers are despondent because they were told certain things were going to change and they haven't.

We have friends in the 'foster care to adopt' system, but every time the children's adoption is about to go through, the mom withdraws consent and they have to wait AGAIN. These 3 kids have been with our friends for, wait for it: FOUR YEARS!!!!!! :Shocked Yet they have not been able to adopt them because the SYSTEM is letting these poor children down. :confused

My blood boils just thinking about it :Mad so I can imagine how frustrated you must feel..... And the whole Indian thing is absolutely ridiculous. I know of many interacial kids of black descend (especially AIDS orphans) who definitely will not be growing up in their true African culture but who will still have a warm, loving family instead of growing up in the streets. It seems that one plus one just does not equal two in our system.

You have all my sympathy!!
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 15:39

Hannah's Hope wrote:Don't get me started on the Children's Act. SO many promises had been made about this Act and it seems that none of them are going to materialize. Even social workers are despondent because they were told certain things were going to change and they haven't.

We have friends in the 'foster care to adopt' system, but every time the children's adoption is about to go through, the mom withdraws consent and they have to wait AGAIN. These 3 kids have been with our friends for, wait for it: FOUR YEARS!!!!!! :Shocked Yet they have not been able to adopt them because the SYSTEM is letting these poor children down. :confused

The new Children's Act is a pipe dream, one I think will never materialize. Too many different levels to implement, too little funds and not enough man power. Plus, it'll involve some hard work and that's a swear word to any high level employee in our government. whistle

I don't believe that there is a true foster to adopt system in SA. There is simply no accountability for bio parents to meet the court's requirements to get custody of their children back. In the USA a parent's right gets terminated if they can't meet those requirements in a year or two at most. In SA, a child will simply remain in foster care until they age out of the system unless their parents voluntarily relinquish their rights. Just look at the new foster care legislation under the new Children's Act, where they're making provision for long term foster placements, but nothing is done in the best interest of the children. I'm not surprised that your friends are in such a precarious situation. I friend once told me about friends of hers who went through the same thing with a foster care situation. They had 2 special needs children in their care and the requirement was that the parental rights would be terminated when the bio parents didn't attempt to contact the children for 12 months. Every time, the father would phone from prison just before the 12 months expired, often with just a day or two to spare, so they could never adopt the children. I think they had the children in care for something like 5 or 6 years before they just realized they would never be able to adopt them, so they "resigned" as foster parents and the children went back into the system.

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Kerryw on Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 8:19

HI

Sorry have not been here in a while

Thanks anotherone for the info on chinese adoptions It was somehting I was serriously considering as you see documentaries about all these americans getting thier baby I never realised the south african side would be such a hurdle.

I think your and Hannah's info is really useful to everyone here thinking of going that route.

I may just go with a Black or coloured baby girl also as one can most likely get them from birth.

I must just wait for my boys to grow a bit as they are very demanding adn K is sick again !!!
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hopeful on Mon 17 May 2010 - 17:37

We have been trying to adopt a little girl from Cambodia, as we adopted our son from Cambodia in 2007 and therefore wished to adopt from the same country and orphanage, as where we adopted our son from. He is already 4 years old, and actaully wanted them to be close in age, and not too far apart. However, the national authority, namely the Department of Social Development has to issue the "country approval letter", which is one of the most essential documents of the dossier, but they have been refusing to issue this letter, as they said that South Africa is a sending State, not a receiving State and that there is no inter-country agreement between the two countries (of matter of fact there is only an agreement with India, but the previous person already mentioned the complication with regards to India). Therefore, until the Department of Social Development changes or improves the current situation, it is NOT possible for South African citizens residing in South Africa to adopt internationally.
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Mon 17 May 2010 - 18:24

Hopeful wrote:We have been trying to adopt a little girl from Cambodia, as we adopted our son from Cambodia in 2007 and therefore wished to adopt from the same country and orphanage, as where we adopted our son from. He is already 4 years old, and actaully wanted them to be close in age, and not too far apart. However, the national authority, namely the Department of Social Development has to issue the "country approval letter", which is one of the most essential documents of the dossier, but they have been refusing to issue this letter, as they said that South Africa is a sending State, not a receiving State and that there is no inter-country agreement between the two countries (of matter of fact there is only an agreement with India, but the previous person already mentioned the complication with regards to India). Therefore, until the Department of Social Development changes or improves the current situation, it is NOT possible for South African citizens residing in South Africa to adopt internationally.

We tried to adopt from Cambodia for 3 years, had many contacts in country willing to help us and everything and we couldn't do it because the Department of Social Development would not assist us in any way. At the moment, the Kingdom of Cambodia has suspended all international adoptions until they have fully implemented the Hague Convention on Intercountry adoption. International adoption is expected to resume in May 2011. Is this Michelle?

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hopeful on Tue 18 May 2010 - 7:45

Hi there "anotherone", yes it's Michelle (the name was already taken when I tried to register). We received information that the inter-country adoption programme in Cambodia will re-open in March 2011, therefore that we wanted to start now already with our dossier, as it takes a long time to prepare all the documentation, the home study, and everything to be legalised etc., but unfortunately we are also being stopped by the Department of Social Development. All very frustrating!! Who is this, we must have communicated before?
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Tue 18 May 2010 - 10:15

It is Veronika. I emailed you in 2007 when you were still in Dubai, to find out what we needed to put together a dossier for Cambodia. Unfortunately, we were unable to get any help or even find somebody to do a homestudy for us. Sorry about the error in stating May 2011, only after posting did I realize I got the wrong "M" month.
:Embarassed

How are you all doing? What have they told you at the Department of Social Development? Any timeline or just NO?

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hopeful on Tue 18 May 2010 - 10:49

anotherone wrote:It is Veronika. I emailed you in 2007 when you were still in Dubai, to find out what we needed to put together a dossier for Cambodia. Unfortunately, we were unable to get any help or even find somebody to do a homestudy for us. Sorry about the error in stating May 2011, only after posting did I realize I got the wrong "M" month.
:Embarassed

How are you all doing? What have they told you at the Department of Social Development? Any timeline or just NO?

Hi Veronika, this is really a small world... Good to hear from you again, it has been a while. Where do you live in South Africa? I started a adoption support group for the Pretoria area and our first get-together is planned for Sunday, 6 June 2010 from 11:00 to 13:00, so if you are around, you should pop-in for a coffee - would be nice to finally meet face-to-face (hope you don't live to far!). Well, I personally think that they are giving us the run-around, as they said we should contact them again in 2 months, maybe the situation would have changed by then, but most probably give us the same story....
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Carmen on Tue 18 May 2010 - 12:20

Hopeful & Anotherone,

Sorry for hijacking your thread, I was just wondering why you are adopting internationally? I'm asking this with respect to your decision and you don't need to answer if you find the question inappropriate.
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hopeful on Tue 18 May 2010 - 13:55

Carmen wrote:Hopeful & Anotherone,

Sorry for hijacking your thread, I was just wondering why you are adopting internationally? I'm asking this with respect to your decision and you don't need to answer if you find the question inappropriate.

Hi Carmen, not a problem... when we started to look at the option of adoption (around 2004/2005), we lived in Dubai and as we were both SA citizens, naturally our first option was to adopt from South Africa, but we were not allowed to adopt from SA, as the reason provided to us was that we lived abroad and the UAE was not party to the Hague Convention, so they could also not treat us as an inter-country adoption, so we had to look at other options. We investigated the very difficult route of international adoption, and after lots of research and seeking various different internatioal agencies, it was finally confirmed that we could adopt from Cambodia. The process was finalised in 2007 and we legally adopted our son at the age of 15 months from Cambodia. We then permanently returned to South Africa in 2008. We now want to adopt a little girl (or sister), as I don't want my son to grow-up as the only child, and as we adopted our son from Cambodia, would prefer if we could adopt again from Cambodia. Hope it answers your question. Smile
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by anotherone on Tue 18 May 2010 - 14:21

Carmen wrote:Hopeful & Anotherone,

Sorry for hijacking your thread, I was just wondering why you are adopting internationally? I'm asking this with respect to your decision and you don't need to answer if you find the question inappropriate.

I explained our decision in my intro thread, you can read it here. There is more to it, but some of it's just not something I want to share on a public forum. I hope you understand. Smiley

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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Carmen on Tue 18 May 2010 - 14:25

Thank you Hopeful, I appreciate your reply. It's sad SA would not let you adopt even though you are SA citizens and we have so many of our own orphaned babies. I do respect your right to adopt from anywhere you decide, for me personally though, my choice is SA. I wish you all the best in your adoption Smiley
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Carmen on Tue 18 May 2010 - 14:29

I totally understand, no probs, thanks. Smile
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Re: RE: Chinese adoption

Post by Hopeful on Tue 18 May 2010 - 16:07

Carmen wrote:Thank you Hopeful, I appreciate your reply. It's sad SA would not let you adopt even though you are SA citizens and we have so many of our own orphaned babies. I do respect your right to adopt from anywhere you decide, for me personally though, my choice is SA. I wish you all the best in your adoption Smiley

Yeah, it's unfortunately not always that easy... wish sometimes it was, but everything happens for a reason, although it only becomes evident much later.... it was meant for our son to come to us, and that was our journey that we had to follow... for him to come home.
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